Graphic card woes

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Kara now has a fine new PC that I put together for her, but on two occasions, the screen froze up while playing Guild Wars. I am trying to find out how to fix this problem, and to see whether this is a hardware defect in the card or a general software or clocking issue.

We have an Asus 7900GT video card and an Asus 8N32SLI-premium motherboard. I did some searching on the net, and apparently Asus sells this video card at default clocking speeds, 450/660, meaning it is not overclocked by default. A lot of the issues that are had with the 7900GT seem to be related to overclocking. Apparently producers other than Asus sell the card where it is overclocked by default.

Since the latest freeze-up last night, I installed the newest Nvidia drivers found on the Nvidia site. I also installed Asus' "SmartDoctor" to see if it could better adjust graphic card fan speed in case overheating was the problem. I also reduced the clock speed to 450/601, which I think is about what Aerwith told me worked for him.

Anyone else have any experiences with this? Any tips on what to do?

Thanks!

[Yozhura]

You might find some useful information in this thread:
vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?id=20060616004004032&board_id=9&model=EN7900+Series&page=1&SLanguage=en-us

Download 3Dmark from here and run Deep Freeze (you can run all the others too as some are pretty nice) but set the speed back to stock first.

If theres no problem in Deep Freeze, do you have another card you can test in the same computer to see if GW still freezes?


I was wrong with the clockspeed, I had 400/450 actually.

I'm gonna try different speed on the ram in Deep Freeze to see when artifacts show up. The speed on the core shouldn't be any problem so I got it at 500 now.

500/450: Passes Deep Freeze without any artifacts.

500/500: Same

500/550: Same

500/600: Same

500/650: Same

500/700: I'm surprised, no artifacts yet, used to have it on these speeds.

520/750: Perhaps my card is cured, screen used to freeze and require a reboot. Not even an artifact now

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Hi Yozhura,

when you say 3Dmark, do you have the purchased version? I downloaded a version last night and ran it, but since I didn't buy it, just downloaded it, I had no options to select which test I wanted to run. And I am not sure the tests were complete.

In running all the tests, the "cpu" test seemed terrible! Like 0 framerates per second or something. Is that usual?

And I don't see what the "Deep Freeze" test is all about, what is so special about it? It is just a scene in the antarctic somewhere, but how is this supposed to be testing my card?

And what was your clock settings originally before you set the speeds down?

Thanks!

[Yozhura]

From what I've heard, the cpu test is capped at 2 FPS to test only the Cpu.

I don't know why Deep Freeze is stressing the card so much, it just is

My stock speeds were 520/750.

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Interesting, I ran the Nvidia "optimizer" and it decided that the best speeds for my card would also be around 520/750.

Just read the thread you linked to, wow, sounds awful! If I saw that before, I definitely would not have bought the 7900GT.

At the moment I am trying to decide if I have a bad card (bad memory or other hardware problem) or if it is something attributed to the general problems people are facing with this card.

Oh, question: you say you were seeing "artifacts" in the Deep Freeze test. What did these look like? So far I just ran the tests to see if they completed without freeze or crash, but I didn't notice any artifacts appearing. From the thread you linked to, it sounds as if the real problems people are facing are from artifacts or from wierd behavior when stopping the 3D game and going back to Windows. This isn't what we experience at all. We just have had two freeze-ups, so maybe our problem is totally unrelated to what others are experiencing with this card.

[Yozhura]

Hard to explain how artifacts look, they can be almost anything. Might be textures stretched across the whole screen or textures in the wrong place. Chances are, if you're getting artifacts, you'll see it.

[Zalis]

You'll definitely know an artifact when you see one. One card I briefly had would do anything from stretch a texture to coloring the whole screen a random tint. Needless to say, I RMA'd it and the new one they sent was ok.

But I'll tell you something about the new 91.xx nvidia drivers. Don't use them if you use clone display or dualview, etc. The fullscreen video function has a bug that stretches everything to be fullscreen, whether it should be or not. So I'm using a third party version of the 85.xx ones.

And have you tried *not* using Smart Doctor? My bad card was an Asus and SD didn't seem to help at all, and may have actually been causing some issues itself.

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Hi Zalis,

well, I am not using clone display or dualview, so that should not be an issue. Thx for the warning though. I read a lot that the drivers in the 8x.xx have had problems, perhaps not the latest ones, and that is why I upgraded.

I only last night after the freezeup installed SmartDoctor. I didn't do this initially because I don't trust all this stuff that runs in the background. But I am not sure how the fan speed of the Asus video card would be adjusted according to video card temperature if I didn't use SD. Information from Asus is very scanty, and I have no idea if there is a fan regulation without SD.

Artifacts we do not seem to see (yet). And I hope the freezes go away. Kara has played a lot of GW since we got the card, and only twice did we have the freeze.

According to forums on this issue, RMA'ing the card may not help much as all the apples in the barrel may be just as bad. Unless our issue is something else entirely, and is just a bad memory address or something. Then we should exchange the card.

Too bad all these problems with the new technology today. I still have fantastic graphics (not as good as Kara's with the 7900GT but darn close) and good performance with my 3 or so year old Nvida Ti4200 card, and never ever had an issue with it.

[paleblade]

What is your PSU (power supply unit) output? For the new cards you need a minimum of 500 watts. Its possible that you don't have enough juice, and when its trying to render a lot of information it crashes.

I have an ATI X800 Pro and I still get random crashes every once in a while. Anet keeps updating the game, and sometimes that messes it up.

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Hi Pale,

my PSU should be good enough. When searching for which PSU to buy, I asked on some forum, and one replier was kind enough to present a huge explanation of what is needed in determining the size of a power supply. Was pretty interesting. According to him it is not the rating in total watts that count, but the amount of amps that each of the various voltage lines could deliver. And that is to be compared to the needs of the various units that will be plugged into these voltage lines.

In my case I selected the Antec TruePower II 480 Watts, which I consider to be overdimensioned for our immediate needs. This uses the new designs, where the voltage supplying the CPU is separated from other units using the same voltage level, but in all cases, this PSU should be able to supply more than what I need on all voltage lines. It also seems to be a very nice PSU, and Antec is a good name for these.

I think, I hope, Kara's freeze-up problems are over. Now we obviously have the fan on the video card being controlled by Asus' utility software, and so the card temperature should remain reasonable. I would just like to someday replace the card's fan, as it is rather noisy even at 40%. But if I do that, I don't know how the fan vs. temperature control would be able to function.

[Zalis]

480w should be fine, considering my 495w is ok for my 7800GTX. Unless the 7900GT has drastically different power needs. I wouldn't imagine that the difference would be too great.

But you definitely want 500+ if you're going SLI.

And replacing the card's fan would most likely void the warantee. But I do it all the time... so it's just up to you. I recommend Arctic Cooling. I've used their NV Silencer line for my past 3 cards and have been very happy. Accelero might be what you need for the 7900. **EDIT** Okay, I just took a closer look and it seems the 7900GT doesn't work w/ Accelero... yet. They were supposed to release a cooling solution in June... so it looks like I'm either not seeing it or they're running behind schedule. Oh well.

The beauty of VGA cooling like this is that it cools your chipset and lowers your case temps.

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Hi Zalis,

thanks for the info! I can see that Accelero is claiming a passive cooler will be available for the 7900GT soon, wow, if that is sufficient, that would be fantastic.

Got a question for you though: when you substitute the stock video card fan with another, for example Arctic cooling, how does it work with fan speed control? Or is there none at all? I got my Asus 7900GT fan to adjust its speed using Asus' software, but what happens if I use a Zalman or another fan? Is it also possible to obtain a fan speed after temperature control?

[Yozhura]

The 7900GT consumes much less power than the 7800GTX and is cooler. With the stock cooler (which is crap), my temperatures rarely exceed 50C. If you're overclocking or want to get the noise down, then it would be wise to get a new one.

I don't think the NV silencer fits the 7900GT either and the new Accelero (if it's still going to come), is going to be passive.

About power supplys, as Jane said, the watt doesn't matter much. What to look for in a PSU is the Amps on the 12V-rail and what brand it is. Never cheap out and buy a low quality brand, it might kill your computer.

[Zalis]

coolsti said:

Got a question for you though: when you substitute the stock video card fan with another, for example Arctic cooling, how does it work with fan speed control? Or is there none at all? I got my Asus 7900GT fan to adjust its speed using Asus' software, but what happens if I use a Zalman or another fan? Is it also possible to obtain a fan speed after temperature control?

With my NV Silencers, I didn't try to tweak the fan control. It's a bigger fan so it runs a little slower and still pushes a decent amount of air... so I just leave it alone. But like Yozhura said, I don't think AC has a solution for the 7900GT right now.

As for recommending PSU brands, I've had great experiences with Thermaltake and Enermax. (not that you need one now, from what you've said)

[Twisted Sister Jane]

I looked at Thermaltake, but didn't like their specs for the price compared to Antec. Haven't heard of Enermax.

The tip about Arctic is great, they seem to be coming out with a passive solution soon. Can't get quieter than that, heh heh. If it is sufficient. If a fan is silent, so it doesn't matter if it runs at 100%, but the Asus stock fan is not anything I would want to have run at over 20% for any length of time

[paleblade]

Well, after a lot of GWOnline surfing, I believe I have found out why some people have video stuttering problems (including myself). It seems that GW audio is the problem.

Yes, AUDIO. Apparently if you don't have a sound card (I have a on board chip) the GW audio causes the on board audio chip to use a lot of CPU resources, thus slowing down the whole system. This is what causes your video to stutter, even if you have a high speed CPU or video card.

People who have sound cards don't seem to have this problem, or only see very little stutter, because the sound card itself processes the sound, thus leaving the CPU to do its own thing.

If your stuttering is really bad, GW has suggested that you turn your audio settings to OFF in the GW setup screen. This should eliminate the problem.

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Yes, good advice, Pale, its good you post this.

While doing some research to build the last PC that I built, I also read that the on-board audio really uses up a lot of CPU power. I put a cheap Creative Soundblaster into my machine and disabled the on-board audio (Bios setting) and my performance is now noticeably better.

Another thing to note is that it pays to turn down the audio quality settings with GW. Of course everyone thinks that it is nice to have video and audio quality settings at the max that can be handled, but at least for audio, apparently things can go very badly if you try to use a high quality setting. I put mine down to about 1/3 on the quality slider scale.

[bowline]

there are so many factors to eliminate in freezing problems (try moving south ) I've recently got a new wireless modem for laptop connection reasons, but play the game from the ethernet connection. I get much less freezing from that change. I am also going to plunge into Linux, which I'm told you can play GW from. If this is possible it will eliminate all that stuff windows keeps trying to do mid game. Though the big battle freeze ups probably are graphic card overload related.

[Twisted Sister Jane]

Bowline, think really carefully before trying to play GW on linux.

I joined in on a thread somewhere on some forum about playing Windows 3D games on Linux, using not an emulator, but a program that actually translated all the Windows system calls to Linux system calls. In that thread I said that I thought it must be a bad idea to use an "emulator" due to performance hit. I was then taught by other posters that the software used for this on Linux (not wine, it was something else) was not an emulator, and they were convinced that CPU performance was not the issue.

However, other posters pointed out that it was not possible to re-create all the effects available in the DirectX 9 Windows world on a Linux PC with these programs. That means that you may have a powerful PC, and you may have a neat graphic card that can do a lot of things, but you won't be able to see the game in all its glory using Linux.

But I don't know for sure. There are lots of threads on this on guildwarsguru, for example this one:

www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10015131&referrerid=&highlight=linux

so maybe you would be satisfied with the results.